This week everyone's favorite android, Brent Spiner,
is here to talk about the final confrontation
between Data and Lore.
We'll dig into Data's complicated family history,
and we'll get in touch with our feelings
as we reflect on the Will Riker/Deanna Troi relationship.
All this and more
is happening right now in The Ready Room.
Hey, nerds. I'm Wil Wheaton and this is The Ready Room,
your official behind-the-scenes hub
for all things Star Trek Universe.
This week's episode of Star Trek: Picard,
titled "Surrender,"
is all about emotional connection among the crew.
But in case you weren't able to connect that beforehand,
I am calling for a red alert! (alarm wailing)
We're delving into every bit of "Lore"
from this week's episode,
but I don't want you to come face to face with spoilers
"B-4" you see it.
So go stream it and then come back here
for our "Data" analysis.
Thank you so much.
Speaking of Data, Lore, and B-4,
my guest this week is my good friend Brent Spiner,
who of course played all three of those androids,
as well as lots of members of the mad scientist Soong family
in Star Trek: The Next Generation,
Star Trek: Enterprise, Star Trek: Nemesis,
and Star Trek: Picard.
Will Riker and his imzadi, Deanna Troi,
also appeared in all of those versions of Trek--
yes, even Enterprise--as Starfleet's top power couple.
Later, we'll celebrate their galaxy-spanning love
through all its ups and downs.
But first, the identity crisis Data experiences
at the center of this week's episode
inspired us here in The Ready Room to take a closer look
at Dr. Noonien Soong's most famous androids,
as they fight for control
inside the body Noonien's son, Altan, created.
Let's find out what it all means for Data's evolution.
Control room, engage.
I have already tasted death.
But this? (android neck clicks)
Ooh!
This is new.
For an actor, there's nothing better
than playing multiple characters.
It's a treat.
And I am the lucky guy who got to do this on our show.
I play Data and all of his brothers
and the Soongs and all of their iterations.
[Dr. Noonian Soong] Mm-hmm. Good. (chuckling)
Good, good, good.
Keep it up. Keep it up. (chuckling)
Old Tom Handy swore you'd never master that.
Luckily we had Brent Spiner to play this role, or roles.
Lore, B-4, Data,
Alton Soong, the old Soong, the young Soong.
I can't imagine anyone else but Brent
trying to blend the characters.
The writing's great, but the writing's very complicated.
It may be the most complicated acting challenge
in the season. (drawer hissing)
It's B-4, isn't it? Looks so much like Data.
I know there've been people who've said,
"They really have strong DNA, these Soongs,
'cause they all look alike".
Yeah, 'cause it's me. That's why. (chuckling)
[Riker] How many more Datas are there?
So when we started Season 3,
I called Brent Spiner and I said,
"I don't want to see you play a Soong ever again."
You'd at least let me finish my work
before you take it away and destroy it.
And he was like, "I agree."
And I said, "But we're doing this reunion
and we've killed Data off twice.
So let's talk about
what's the most satisfying conclusion
to the Star Trek: The Next Generation story,
and ask ourselves, "How is Data not a part of that?"
I've watched Data die twice.
Ah.
Data the android, but this is Data
something else.
There's a great back-half arc for Data, as well,
where he goes up against his former villain-self of Lore.
And just like exploring that journey of Data,
like confronting his past and confronting his challenges,
and, you know, at times the darker side of himself,
and winning out felt like a really great journey
for Brent and Data to go on.
You took the things that were me and in doing so,
you have become me.
Well, I think the value of revisiting these characters
is that they're different.
They're changed.
The years have changed them in various ways.
And Geordi is certainly not the same person he was
when we last saw him.
And certainly Data is not either.
I think Data goes through the most change
and transformation.
Oy, this new Data. Oy vey.
I mean, if we thought he had problems before.
Ay yai yai, we got problems.
I mean, whew, you know?
He's quite a handful now, let's put it that way.
We started to talk about the Data aesthetic
and Brent was like, well, "I can't look like Data."
And I'm like, but why can't Data look old?
Why couldn't there be a programming?
Why couldn't Soong have added the aesthetic of age?
I've always wanted to see (chuckles) an old Data.
Specifically, you kind of get a glimpse of it
in "All Good Things."
I've found that a touch of gray adds an air of
distinction.
We wanted something that hearkened back to Data,
the Data that we know, but looked a little off.
That would explain why you're so old.
Time has been very cruel to you.
He now has a glow to him, a sparkly kind of robotic glow
that kind of mimics a little bit of Data,
a little bit of human.
You can see a little bit of Brent under there,
but not taking away his full face of makeup.
I think they created something here
that allowed me to come back and do it again.
And what was interesting to me about it was that
the character was completely altered.
It wasn't the same character anymore.
He had evolved into something else
that seemed to me at this time in my life,
this geriatric time in my life,
that I would be able to actually play.
I am still Data, but also Lore, B-4,
all that Dr. Soong programmed into this body.
We've seen every possible permutation of Brent Spiner.
And it just keeps getting better. What can I tell you?
Luckily it's Brent doing it and not me.
So it's quite thrilling to see what we end up with.
I was just with the new Data,
who has a little taste of all of it, but is...
He's still in there.
Oh, I am mostly myself I assure you.
Albeit with a dash of computational joie de vivre.
I'm actually thinking Star Trek: Data
as the next spinoff. (chuckles)
In which I play every character. (laughing)
I am so happy to be here today,
talking about this week's episode of Star Trek: Picard
with one of my absolute favorite humans on this planet,
Brent Spiner.
Brent! - Hey, Wil.
Welcome back to The Ready Room.
Wil, so glad to be here with you, 35 years later.
Yeah right? - Yeah.
We're supposed to really talk about this week's episode,
but before we get there, I want to back up a tiny little bit
and just talk about a moment from earlier in the season.
Okay.
This week we get to see Data and Lore,
right at each other.
It is an amazing performance.
But I've had other cast members through here
this season so far,
and we have all talked about the moment
where we find Data and he is turned on,
and you go through all of the people that are inside of him.
I'm Lore. (laughs wickedly)
(android whirring and clacking)
I am B-4.
(sighs)
I'm Soong.
Like, the level of commitment to that.
It's risky. - Yeah.
I'm just so interested to know about that.
Well, you know, the most difficult part of it
was just doing it in front of people. (chuckles)
Because LeVar was there, Patrick was here, Gates was there.
(clapperboard clacks)
You know, it's just committing to what you have to do.
It's acting. You know, acting is acting.
You know, you've got challenges that you wanna meet.
I'm happy to know that other people have found
that it actually landed.
When Data and Lore are inside the positronic network,
it's an incredible chess match.
The practical reality of all of that,
is you are one actor playing two roles.
Tell me about acting opposite yourself.
Well, you know, I've said this before
and I'm being glib when I say it,
but it does offer me the opportunity
to work with my favorite actor.
Of course.
Finally, someone that is worthy
of your time and performance.
Exactly. - Yeah.
And, yeah.
You know, we were talking about it briefly
before we sat down. - Yeah.
And you asked me about that scene
or mentioned something about it and I said,
"Yeah, we were in a..."
And I said "we"- - You did.
because it seemed like there were two of us all the time,
even though it was just me in there.
And there were times where, literally,
I just stepped around the camera
and became the other character.
And then stepped around, as the camera moved,
stepped around and became Lore or Data,
whoever I needed to be.
But there was another actor for eyelines
and things like that.
They put him in the makeup?
Well I wasn't really in that much makeup.
Oh, you weren't in the makeup, I forgot.
Yeah. - I forgot that.
I just had the eyes in. - The eyes.
It's unsettling to see you as you with just the eyes,
'cause to me, I'm like, "Oh, Brent's on his way to makeup."
(both laughing)
- Right? - Exactly.
Like, Brent hasn't turned into Data yet.
Let's talk about Data's evolution over 35 years.
I did a thing yesterday where I revisited the pilot
and I remembered that Data.
Very different - Yes.
from Data in Season 1 of Star Trek: Picard.
Very different from Data this week.
- Right. - Right?
Talk to me about finding Data in the beginning
- [Brent] Yeah. - and experimenting with him.
Is it fair to say that you, as an actor,
experimented with Data's existence the way Data
is experimenting with discovering human existence?
Yeah, I think that's reasonable.
You know, in the beginning it was just a blank canvas.
You know, that I felt free to do anything I wanted to do,
because there was no prerequisite for it.
Nobody was going to say to me,
"No, no, no. An android wouldn't do that."
How would they know? - Right.
And so I could pretty much do whatever I wanted.
But we had a director very early on,
third episode or so,
who said, "You are gonna get so tired of this
because it's gonna be the most limiting work
you've ever done.
I mean, you can't be emotional. You can't...
You know, you're gonna hate this.
By the seventh season, you're just gonna be miserable."
And I said, "I don't think so." I said--
I mean, listen. There's like wrong and then there's wrong.
(chuckles) Yeah.
Well, as it turned out, fortunately he was wrong.
And I just saw that, you know, the canvas was smaller,
but I had the opportunity to paint every,
you know, inch of it.
And so it grew as it went on, as Data grew.
You know, as he absorbed information
and knowledge about what it means to be a human.
That's where I went too.
And I think the most telling thing for me,
I mean, the thing that I think was true in the beginning
and true to the end of Picard,
is something Gene said to me right off the bat.
He said, "Here's what I want from Data."
He said, "Through the series, as long as it goes,
however long you play this,
Data is going to get closer and closer and closer
to being human.
And in the end of the day, still not".
And I think that's where we've gone.
He almost seems like he is something
that's not entirely android, not entirely human.
Right.
Somehow synergistically more than both of those things?
Yeah.
Well, he's become a hybrid
that is somehow a little bit more,
and at the same time, he's still experimenting.
Even now. He's still trying to understand even now,
the minutiae of what it means to be human.
There's a terrific--toward the end of this episode--
this terrific little walk and talk
where you really feel the joy of using contractions.
[Brent] Right.
[Wil] And the fun of telling a joke.
Hey, Data! You just used a contraction.
No, I didn't.
[Wil] The childlike wonder of like,
"Look at this new toy I have!"
(Geordi chuckles)
It appears I'm capable of using contractions now!
And humor, too.
[Brent] He's still on a journey.
And that's what I think Gene wanted and that's what I want.
An aspect of Star Trek: Picard
is resolving pieces of The Next Generation timeline,
resolving pieces of our character's stories.
I mean, even I got some resolution last season.
Right.
And it's really beautiful
and it's also incredibly sad, right?
Just that, like...
I've been saying all season long
in this run of Ready Rooms,
like as we say on Star Trek, all good things.
[Brent] Yeah.
So like, we're kind of coming up to maybe
just like saying, "Thank you so much."
And we're taking our final bow
on the Next Generation stage.
- Right. What does that mean for you?
It remains to be seen. - Yeah.
But if this is the final bow,
then I think it's a decent one to take.
I think Terry did a a wonderful job with the script
and everyone's just at the top of their game.
It's amazing.
I have a list of all the different Soongs
(Brent laughs)
and all the different androids.
I'm just gonna read them 'cause it's a lot.
There's Data, there's Lore, B-4.
Mm-hmm.
Then as members of the Soong family,
Noonien, Arik, Altan, and Adam.
They are all so different from one another.
They all carry an emotional consistency through them,
that I think probably comes from you
being the actor who plays them all,
kind of brings them all together.
Do you do anything as an actor
to put Adam on, to put Lore on?
With the exception of the first appearance of Dr. Soong,
when all three worked at the same time.
That was just really charade, you know?
I mean, how do I do this?
In fact, I didn't know if I could play Dr. Soong initially.
[Wil] Really?
I requested to play Dr. Soong. But...
And then Rick Berman, who was producing the series,
they had already hired
Keye Luke to play the part and--
- I remember this. - Yeah. And...
- Love Keye Luke. - Yes.
And I said, "But doesn't it make more sense
for me to play Dr. Soong?
And then Data,
he's not just his father and his creator,
he's everything."
And then he said, "Okay, you can do it."
And then I panicked and I thought, how am I gonna do this?
And as always,
everything we do is not just us.
In that case, I give half of that performance,
at least half to Michael Westmore,
who created this amazing makeup.
And literally he wanted to put it on
the day before we were gonna shoot Dr. Soong the first time.
And I honestly thought, "How am I gonna do this?"
And, "What have I gotten myself into?"
And he put the makeup on and I looked in the mirror
and I thought, "Oh, I get it.
Sure. I know how to do that."
There's a terrific scene in this episode where our cast
is together alone for the first time.
In an observation lounge. - Yeah.
And as I in the audience think,
it's been forever since this has happened,
one of the characters says,
"It's been forever since this happened."
And it felt to me very much like another day on Stage 8.
Of like, you know, the camera going around and all that.
You are the first person I've had the opportunity to talk to
about everybody being together.
Tell me about that experience. Tell me about that day.
I feel like it would be supremely emotional, joyful,
and at the end of the day, we gotta get the job done.
Right. Well, it is all of those things, I think.
And more. Because we are a family, you know?
And so there's all kinds of personalities going on.
But I have to say it felt very comfortable.
It was like another day at the office, you know?
We spent so many hours doing that,
and the fact that it's not like we wrapped Nemesis
and said, "Take it easy, hope to see you again one day."
We see each other all the time.
We talk to each other all the time.
So it's not unusual for us to all be together.
Being together in character made it slightly different.
But it was, well, you know. It was wonderful.
It was exhilarating.
I wanna talk about Data's sense of humor.
I've talked about this in public over the years.
I don't know if I've ever talked about it with you,
like sitting next to me.
But when I was a kid, when we were on the set,
I just thought you were, by orders of magnitude,
the funniest person on the set.
(Data thumps)
There's a whimsy and a dryness and an irony
and a willingness to have a joke die on most people
because those two people that it lands on,
boy is it great. - That's all you need.
And I feel like I was always one of those people.
Like I was...
If there was ever an incredibly willing audience around you,
it was me. - Yeah.
And I feel like the writers figured out around Season 4,
Spiner's got real good comedy chops
and started leaning into Data doing comedic bits.
And being a little bit funnier.
In that process, Data becomes a little bit more like Brent.
Yeah.
Talk to me, if you can,
about bringing a little bit more of you
into Data over all of these years.
Yeah. There's a fine line, ultimately.
And I think it's kind of true of all the characters.
Yeah.
Most unusually with Data, perhaps,
because he is a machine.
The thin line between who they are and who they're playing.
I mean, there's a lot of Patrick in Picard for sure.
There's a lot of Riker in Jonathan.
But yeah, it was an interesting symbiotic thing
between me and Data.
Where the more I got to be him, the more he got to be me.
And as you say, (shoes clacking)
I think the writers figured that out.
They figured that out and they figured out
that I could do other characters.
And so they had me playing all kinds of--
It was the idea of Data trying on the clothes
and the attitudes of other characters,
that was really fun for me to play.
[Wil] I'm thinking of Data
trying on the gangster attitude in "Big Goodbye."
Right. And that was first season.
And I remember you pulling his pants up like Cagney.
- Yeah. And that was-- - I remember you doing that.
And then I remember watching Data do that
and as a little kid thinking,
"Oh, Data's doing that 'cause it's fun for Brent."
Yeah. Well, it was.
And I did this Cagney thing, I think I did it.
(Brent snaps and claps) - Yeah.
- Where, you know... - Yes. Yeah.
And so yeah, I stole from everybody, you know?
But... - Like a great artist.
Yeah, but. Well, I don't...
I can say that.
- Let me say that. - You can.
Yeah. Thank you.
And I have to go, "Wow." (chuckles)
(laughing) Good. Both boxes have been checked.
Exactly. But, yeah.
So they gave me so many opportunities
that plugged right into who I was.
I mean, it was a dream for me.
And I always wanted to play Sherlock Holmes.
- Always. - Really? I didn't know that.
[Brent] Yeah, and I never mentioned it. And-
[Wil] Really?
all of a sudden the script shows up,
"Elementary, Dear Data," and I was like, "What?
I get to play Sherlock Holmes?" I mean, this is fantastic!
And- - How did I never know that?
You always wanted to play Sherlock Holmes?
Always.
I mean, Basil Rathbone was such a hero when I was a kid.
Really.
I saw all of those films and--
That must have been the coolest thing in the world!
It was!
And then, you know, we did Western episodes-
- [Wil] Yeah! - and Robinhood
and Shakespeare and Dickens
and all kinds of things.
Humbug, I tell you. Humbug.
It was all about Data's discovery of humanity
that allowed me to take the stuff I enjoy doing
and run it through him.
We are two episodes away
from this story reaching its conclusion.
Is there anything you want to tease,
without giving things away?
Well, all I want to tease is that...
Stay with it because the show really,
really kind of takes off beautifully
in the last two episodes.
And as I said before,
everybody in the cast,
the old and young and in between...
Amanda Plummer, Jeri-- - Man, she's good. Wow.
Yeah. She is.
Jeri Ryan and Michelle and the kids who,
you know, are a part of the show now.
Everybody nails it in the last couple episodes.
That's awesome. - Yeah.
Thanks for coming in today. It's good to see you.
Wil, good to see you.
Let's not take so long in getting together, like...
How 'bout tomorrow? - Great! I'll see you then.
See you then.
The relationship between Will Riker and Deanna Troi
has been one of the foundations
of Star Trek: The Next Generation
since literally the pilot.
Over the years, Riker and Troi have had their ups and downs,
but together they have always come through their challenges
stronger and more united.
Here's a close look at the First Couple of Star Trek.
You really think after 35 years of loyalty
that I'm gonna betray my friends for you?
No, Captain Riker. Not for me.
Oh, Will. (music intensifies)
When I was invited back to revisit Riker and Troi
in their new world,
I didn't know how special it was gonna be
until I was in the scenes with Marina.
I've missed you, Imzadi.
Imza--
I should have taught you another word.
Yintaru?
Yintaru. What does that mean?
Baby of immense size. - (Riker laughing)
To go all the way back to the beginning of Star Trek,
or our Star Trek, in "Encounter at Farpoint,"
the story between Riker and Troi was that
we empathically could read each other.
[Picard] May I introduce our new first officer,
Commander William Riker.
Commander Riker, this is our ship's counselor, Deanna Troi.
[Deanna] Do you remember what I taught you, Imzadi?
Can you still sense my thoughts?
That we had been lovers on another ship and that we had,
you know, we had a very special, passionate relationship.
The fans love the Troi-Riker thing.
The producers, a lot of the time,
and the writers in the beginning ignored it.
I mean they literally, like, "It's not happening.
It didn't happen. Forget it ever happened."
And Jonathan and I refused to let it die.
I'm supposed to know how everyone feels,
but I can't read you right now.
Perhaps your own feelings are getting in the way.
The writers conveniently decided
that it's easier for them if Riker and Troi are single
and can have, as Riker did, flings like Kirk.
Never to the level that Kirk got to.
Well I've already dined,
maybe you know a good Acamarian dessert recipe.
Riker had relationships with other people.
Troi had relationships with other people,
including, for some reason, Worf, which I can't imagine.
We were walking barefoot on the beach
with balalaika music in the air,
and the most you can say is, "Stimulating?"
It was...
very stimulating.
People always like a "will they, won't they."
That whole, not certainty that they're gonna be together.
And then there was that whole fling that Troi had with Worf
that kind of sent everything off on a tangent.
I have counted the days since I last saw you.
Like waves in the ocean, constant and unending.
Well, that's wonderful, Worf-- - Inappropriate.
Is this a rescue mission or a continuation of the torture?
Marina and I playing Riker and Troi
for seven years and four movies,
always reminded each other
that the characters were still in love.
And so that behavior was our sort of acting secret
that other people had forgotten about and given up on.
We would play stuff between us,
that usually ended up on the cutting room floor,
but now and again they couldn't cut it out
'cause there were other people in the shot or whatever.
Imzadi.
It informed our relationship in the scenes.
It informed our relationship with other people.
It gave us something special to play
whenever we were together, in big groups, small groups.
We kept it going, much to the consternation of the suits.
But the fans loved it and I'm glad that we did it.
And then, ironically, Riker and Troi got married.
In Season 1, Michael and Akiva introduced this idea
that the Rikers had lost a child.
[Deanna] Last week would've been his 18th birthday.
So we asked ourselves,
what's the next step in the Riker-Troi story?
It seemed like they were getting on well in Season 1,
but like all relationships, all marriage,
there's a lot more going on under the surface.
Their marriage has gone through quite a rocky period.
I mean, I think the fact that they're still married
after losing a child, I think is pretty amazing.
'Cause I think most marriages
don't survive the loss of a child.
Your grief was taking you over.
You were disappearing from us!
And you used your Betazoid powers
to push yourself inside my head to dull the pain.
We had talked about a backstory in which,
what's it like for a Betazoid to go through grief?
She's not just experiencing her grief,
she's experiencing her family's grief.
Being able to start them from that place
and dealing with grief still that hasn't been resolved,
it had just felt like, you know, some fresh snow
that we haven't seen those characters experience before.
Well unlike you, I felt the weight of everyone's grief
and not just my own.
There's a beauty in watching them find themselves again,
that they do love each other.
They are working together to get past this.
And we're putting it against the backdrop
of this major conspiracy and putting them in a prison cell.
So it felt like a good opportunity
for Jonathan Frakes and Marina
to really embrace their acting chops
and really go for it.
And I think those scenes are phenomenal.
I forgot the one thing
that all counselors should remember:
You can't skip to the end of healing.
She's my favorite. She's my favorite acting partner.
And she is...
She brings the best outta me. I trust her.
She reminds me of my wife,
who's another wonderful actor who brings that honesty.
And the answer is B, Worf
because Klingon allergies are hilarious!
We're approaching the final episodes of the season
at warp speed!
To help prepare you for what's to come,
here's an exclusive clip from next week's episode.
[Deanna] So the vines are connections?
Is that what you're seeking, connection?
Yes. Many.
- [Echoing Voice] Hear me.
[Deanna] Your truth. (door thumps)
It's behind that door.
- [Echoing Voice] Find me.
Will you let me open it for you? I promise
- [Echoing Voice] You're nothing.
[Deanna] whatever we might find there,
you will not be alone.
- [Echoing Voice] We will be together soon, Jack.
Yes.
(footsteps clacking)
(echoing voice faintly speaking)
(door creaks) (Deanna gasps)
I'm-- I'm sorry. Um.
I, I, I'm really sorry. Excuse me.
What did you see? (door whirs)
Tell me, what did you see? What did you see?
I want to say so many things
because I have seen what's coming.
All I will tell you is it will blow your mind.
Our time in The Ready Room has again come to a close.
I wanna say thank you to Brent Spiner
for spending time with me today.
And I really wanna thank you.
Yeah you, as always, for being here with me.
I love this.
Next week we'll take a deep dive into Star Trek: Picard
Season 3, Episode 9, titled "Vox."
But that episode is so full
of incredible twists and spoilers,
I am not allowed to tell you who will be here.
I will tell you that you don't wanna miss it.
Until then, I'm Wil Wheaton.
Live long and prosper.